QualityWings Simulations Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > Ultimate 787 Collection Support > Pilot's Lounge
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Landing
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

Welcome to the QualityWings Forums! Ultimate 787 Owners who are new to our Support system: DO NOT POST SUPPORT REQUEST IN THE GENERAL FORUMS! You must register your product by going here first.

Landing

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Message
HighFlier View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 19 Jun 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 33
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HighFlier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Landing
    Posted: 06 Oct 2017 at 10:35pm
I was just wondering how people are landing this bird. Compared to other aircraft I seem to be hitting the ground at a higher ROD (by like a difference of 100-125 feet per minute) than normal. For most planes, I normally take over the control surfaces but leave the aircraft on autotrottle until touchdown. I'm finding that the plane automatically retards the engines to idle at 50 feet, and I think it's that loss of thrust which is causing me to come in hard (and when I mean hard I mean like -200 ft/min but I usually aim for -100 ft/min :/ ). Would it be better to also take manual control of the engines and leave the power on as I wish? Or should I simply adjust my flare and leave the autothrottle on? Or, if anyone knows, what is Boeing's proper procedure for a manual landing in the B787?
Back to Top
carper195 View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2016
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 33
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carper195 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 1:21am
Just practice. My first landing was hard. I've done about 20 flights in it already and it's pretty soft now. 
Back to Top
Kevin View Drop Down
QW Crew
QW Crew
Avatar

Joined: 12 May 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 2933
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kevin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2017 at 6:19am
I haven't had any issues with landing. Just takes time to get used to is all.
Captain Kevin
Back to Top
fsclips View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsclips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 11:26am
I have done quite a few landings now and find the aircraft handles very well.

Switching off the Autopilot, but leaving the A/T System on is not how you should fly a Boeing. Boeing themselves make it clear that you need to switch off both. In fact, not doing so can have rather drastic results (see Asiana crash).

Just keep practicing and you will see, it will all fall into place at some point. Smile

All the best.

fsclips
Back to Top
gnt586 View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 02 Oct 2017
Location: Jackson Wy
Status: Offline
Points: 137
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gnt586 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 11:42am
-119 ft/min  was my last one 

Seem to stop very fast though once touched down on AB2
All Liveries on Avsim Here
Gone Snowboardin Back next Year
Back to Top
HighFlier View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 19 Jun 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 33
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HighFlier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 12:21pm
I've read contrary for Boeings. PMDG manuals and tutorials for the 777 say to keep the autothrottle on until touchdown whether you are doing an autoland or not. I also believe the autothrottle was off during the Asiana crash but I could be wrong on that.

I've simply adjusted my flare and I'm getting my normal landing rates again, thx everyone.
Back to Top
Matt S View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 12:53pm
Originally posted by fsclips fsclips wrote:

Switching off the Autopilot, but leaving the A/T System on is not how you should fly a Boeing. Boeing themselves make it clear that you need to switch off both. In fact, not doing so can have rather drastic results (see Asiana crash).


I don't say this to be a jerk, but I think this is inaccurate.

The challenge with hand-flying analog airplanes like the 737/747/757/767 with autothrust is the potential for "power/pitch coupling", where you have the pilot and A/T working against each other and precise pitch control suffers.

On FBW aircraft like the 777 and 787 (and Airbuses for that matter), the issue of power/pitch coupling is eliminated and the A/T can (and in the opinion of some airline SOP writers 'should' or 'must') be used while hand flying with no problems at all. They are actually considered more responsive than a human in the sense that less wind additives are required when A/T is used if I recall the FCOMs correctly.

The problem with Asiana was not that the A/T didn't perform well while hand flying, but rather that the A/T was not actually configured by the flight crew to control the speed nor was it offering the speed protections that they assumed they had (due to pilot incompetence, poor design, or a mix of both depending on whose lawyers you believe LOL).

Happy to be proven wrong if you've read something different in the manuals or in Boeing official statements!

Back to Top
fsclips View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsclips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 12:54pm
The final report regarding the Asiana crash hasn't been released yet, but from what I have heard they walked into the "FLCH Trap".

I am not rated on the 777, but I fly on the 737 and help train on the 747 and on those aircraft a "hybrid" flying style with Autopilot off and A/T on is not recommended. I also know that on 767 and 757 Boeing says the same.
It would surprise me if the 777 is any different as it uses the same logic as the other aircraft and will not add power if you have the F/D on. You can easily stall a Boeing if you fly with the A/T system on.

I have actually made a short video about it, explaining why this can be dangerous. If you are interested: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9ZXvN9IInU 

Anyway, glad your landings are getting better.

Remember, it doesn't matter how good a pilot is, people will always judge them by their landing Wink

fsclips
Back to Top
fsclips View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsclips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 1:00pm
@Matt
Sorry just saw your reply. It is possible that due to the FBW there is indeed a difference, but I still wouldn't recommend doing it.

Airbus of course is a different story. They don't have an autothrottle but and autothrust system which uses a very different logic.

I know a few 777 drivers and will ask them. Of course, there may be differences between airlines too. It never fails to amaze me how different companies operate the same type so differently. 
Back to Top
Matt S View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 14 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 752
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Matt S Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 1:29pm
Originally posted by fsclips fsclips wrote:

@Matt
Sorry just saw your reply. It is possible that due to the FBW there is indeed a difference, but I still wouldn't recommend doing it.

Airbus of course is a different story. They don't have an autothrottle but and autothrust system which uses a very different logic.

I know a few 777 drivers and will ask them. Of course, there may be differences between airlines too. It never fails to amaze me how different companies operate the same type so differently. 


Please do, I'd love to hear how it works from the horse's mouth compared to just reading about it!

And holy hell sorry for giving a rated pilot a lesson on issues with flying the 737/747 with autothrottle LOL.   
Back to Top
fsclips View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote fsclips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 1:43pm
@Matt
I take (almost) everything I read seriously. Even after almost 20 years in aviation I still learn new things every day and sometimes from the most unlikely sources. 
It is quite possible that certain airlines do indeed allow their pilots to do the "hybrid" flying...who knows Smile
I will ask and report back. Be patient, we are all rather busy at the moment.

Shame I don't know a 787 pilot. I wonder if they can use the A/T whilst flying manually. 

Maybe QW has contacts?

fsclips
Back to Top
erese View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 May 2012
Location: Finland
Status: Offline
Points: 245
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote erese Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 1:55pm
In this video it seems crew uses autothrottle trough the landing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHYYF0yBCvA

Maybe there are differencies between airlines sop and boeing also.

Edited by erese - 11 Oct 2017 at 5:59pm
Back to Top
ACCTHA4 View Drop Down
New Member
New Member


Joined: 02 Oct 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 34
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ACCTHA4 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 2:09pm
If you have fly all the B777 747 b777 A320 A319 and AS330 beta... 

You can fly B787 easily when landing... Dont use auto landing though!
Back to Top
thibodba View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 17 Feb 2013
Location: United States
Status: Offline
Points: 7
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote thibodba Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Oct 2017 at 7:59pm
Originally posted by fsclips fsclips wrote:

I have done quite a few landings now and find the aircraft handles very well.

Switching off the Autopilot, but leaving the A/T System on is not how you should fly a Boeing. Boeing themselves make it clear that you need to switch off both. In fact, not doing so can have rather drastic results (see Asiana crash).

Just keep practicing and you will see, it will all fall into place at some point. Smile

All the best.

fsclips


Actually Boeing does not say you “need” to disconnect both. They recommend disconnecting the Autothrottle if the Autopilot is off. I personally disconnect both at the same time. But I see tons of guys that leave it engaged til about 100’. Eitherway, everyone seems to agree having the power off before the flare. I certainly wouldn’t pull the power to idle at 50’ in a manual landing like the autothrottle system.
Back to Top
Registered View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 16 Oct 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 38
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Registered Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Oct 2017 at 8:04pm
Autothrottle should begin to retard at around 50ft AGL.

I second fsclip, and thank you for the videos!

Disconnect autothrottle when you disconnect autopilot. I believe Boeing now needs to make this mandatory because of both the Asiana and Emirates crashes. Professionals are relying too heavily on automation (autothrottle) during a "manual" landing.
Back to Top
fsclips View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote fsclips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 11:32am
Hi all

Ok, I have managed to pick some brains.
If you were expecting a "yes" or "no" answer, sorry, but aviation doesn't work that way. Smile

For all Boeing aircraft before the 777 (737,747,757,767) Boeing strongly recommended to switch off the Autothrottle system whenever the Autopilot is switched off.
The Boeing A/T system is not really designed to be used in that way and may start chasing speeds by continuously applying and retarding thrust. This can lead (due to the thrust coupling) to an unstable flight profile or an unstable approach.

With the introduction of FBW this changed. On the 777 and 787 pilots can indeed leave the A/T system on whenever they switch off the Autopilot.

It seems that most airlines have adopted Boeings recommendations although there are exceptions. There are still airlines out there that follow the "one off - all off" principle, even on FBW aircraft.

It is also worth noting that pilots are told to leave their hands on the thrust levers and to move them manually if they feel an adjustment needs to be made. The nice thing about the Boeings is that despite all the automation, the pilot is never out of the loop.

So there you have it.
You can fly the QW 787 with the A/T system on, just don't forget about the speed altogether. Still monitor carefully and be aware of what's going on. That's what makes a good pilot.

All the best.

stefan
Back to Top
HighFlier View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 19 Jun 2016
Status: Offline
Points: 33
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HighFlier Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2017 at 12:20pm
Thanks for the answer!
Back to Top
UALramp182 View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 12 Oct 2017
Location: ORD
Status: Offline
Points: 26
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote UALramp182 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2017 at 4:08am
Coming from the 747 I find that you have to really change your landing technique when flying the dream liner. On the Jumbo I simply cut power at 20 feet, hold slight back pressure on the stick and the Jumbo settles really gently on the runway. On the dream liner that gives you a ratherfirm landing, nothing that will cause maintenance issues but definitely not a smooth landing. Still working on the technique lol since I'm used to the Jumbo's huge wings and tail surfaces.
Back to Top
fontaine32 View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 22 Jun 2012
Status: Offline
Points: 4
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fontaine32 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2017 at 5:51am
Originally posted by Registered Registered wrote:

Autothrottle should begin to retard at around 50ft AGL.

I second fsclip, and thank you for the videos!

Disconnect autothrottle when you disconnect autopilot. I believe Boeing now needs to make this mandatory because of both the Asiana and Emirates crashes. Professionals are relying too heavily on automation (autothrottle) during a "manual" landing.

I believe the pilot was relying on autopilot too much to try to stay on path. Didn't disconnect AP until the plane started climbing due to hitting FLCH after missed approach altitude was set. The autothrottle system has proven reliable, but when you have an experienced pilot who can't hand fly a visual that's where the problem lies. Once he pulled the thrust levers back and went into hold mode it was all over. I also wonder why an RNAV wasn't selected if he was uncomfortable with an inactive glide slope or ask for 28R. 
Back to Top
tjf4375 View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 14 May 2012
Location: Sussex, UK
Status: Offline
Points: 53
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tjf4375 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Oct 2017 at 8:16pm
I too am still getting firm landings - around 200fpm - and can't seem to find the sweet spot with throttle and flare on this aircraft. I've been disabling A/P but leaving A/T on. I think my slightly firm landings may be due to my being used to flying the airbuses, as I'm instinctively retarding the throttles swiftly at 30>20ft - from reading these comments it seems the auto-throttle system does that automatically with the 787 at flare height, is that right?
Back to Top
Frafty View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frafty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 1:15am
Here's a question in terms of landing technique in general: at what point do you transition your eyes from the TDZ to the horizon? 
Back to Top
Frafty View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 15 Oct 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 23
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Frafty Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2017 at 1:29am
Also, per the discussion above, does the QW787 emulate that practice (keeping A/T on until touchdown)? 

If so, how do the throttles know when to set themselves to idle upon flare? In the Airbus, you retard the throttles yourself up until that point. 

Just watched 4 787 landing videos where I watched all crew members in each video leave the A/T engaged while landing, so curios as to how the plane knows when to close the throttles if it's still engaged at touch down. 
Back to Top
fsclips View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 Feb 2017
Status: Offline
Points: 27
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fsclips Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2017 at 4:50am
Aircraft systems are usually linked to alt-readouts (AGL).

The same system that tells you "50", "40","30",... will also be used to retard the throttle.

Aircraft are very much "aware" of their surroundings which is why they can give call-outs like "Terrain", "Pull-up", "Too low gear", "Too low flaps", "Sinkrate",... etc.

The aircraft also knows when the main struts compress. That, combined with the rotation speed of the tires, tells the plane that it is on the ground. 
The spoilers deploy and mode changes are made to "roll out".

There are sensors everywhere on a modern aircraft, however don't be fooled. They can mis-read and cause havoc.
Just google flight LH 2094.

As I said before: YOU are the pilot, monitor and make sure all the systems are doing the right thing at the right time. When a system mis-interprets data, calls for the wrong action and an accident occurs, it is always the pilots fault.

Like my instructor always said: It is very hard to get a licence, but very easy to loose one Smile

Hope this helps

stefan 



Back to Top
Canadian777 View Drop Down
Licensed Member
Licensed Member


Joined: 25 Oct 2017
Location: Toronto
Status: Offline
Points: 37
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Canadian777 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2017 at 12:10pm
Performing just few landing I found that this add-on is easiest to land for some reason, to the point that I don't like it...LOL. Yesterday I had heavy head wind and that produced some extra work. Only confusion I have with this plane is that stops really quickly, so I have feeling that I could land on 5000ft runway.....So either real plane works the same way or perhaps QW should adjust some dynamics. Other than that everything else works fine. Descend after T/D could be challenging at times because VNAV doesn't follow the speed so Speed brake often is used to bring it realistic and posted speed in FMC. That should be looked next.
Alex
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 11.10
Copyright ©2001-2017 Web Wiz Ltd.